Plaidcast 330: Lauren Hough, Skylar Wireman & Joe Norick by Taylor, Harris Insurance Services

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Piper and Catie Staszak speak with olympian Lauren Hough about her incredible career and her new partnership. Piper also talks with young professional rider Skylar Wireman about what is next for her riding career and Joe Norick, Chief Customer Officer of HITS Shows, about the exciting changes coming to all of the HITS venues. Brought to you by Taylor, Harris Insurance Services. Listen in!

GUESTS AND LINKS:

• Host: Piper Klemm of The Plaid Horse Magazine and Catie Staszak
• Guest: Lauren Hough is a three-time Pan American medalist and Team USA Olympic rider. Lauren’s extended list of successes began early, earning numerous championships in the hunter, jumper and equitation rings as a junior rider. Lauren has since represented the United States at seven FEI World Cup Finals, the Olympics in Sydney, Australia, over 40 Nations Cup appearances and winning three medals at the Pan American Games.
• Guest: Skylar Wireman is a top hunter and jumper rider who recently turned professional. Skylar finished out her junior career as the 2022 Reserve Champion at the Washington International Horse Show Equitation Finals, Reserve Champion at the Dover USEF Hunt Seat Finals, third at the North American Equitation Finals, and Champion at the Gladstone Equitation Cup. Daughter of trainer, Shayne Wireman, Skylar has been a regular on the show circuit for many years and is known as a fantastic catch rider. Skylar won her first Grand Prix as a professional rider this January at the Desert International Horse Park.
• Guest: Joe Norick is the new Chief Customer Officer of HITS Shows. As a lifelong equestrian, Joe Norick began his career under the training of the legendary Ralph Caristo. Joe continued his education at Foxfield Riding Club in Westlake Village, CA and Sam and Libby Edelman’s S&L Farms in North Salem, NY and Wellington, FL. In the early 2000’s, Joe launched a career in the equine insurance business. Joe presently oversees a portfolio of Farm & Ranch properties, Equine Mortality and High Net Worth clients for Alliant Private Client, where he will continue to serve as an advisor.
• Pictured: Lauren Hough, Photo Credit: Andrew Ryback Photography
• Title Sponsor: Taylor, Harris Insurance Services, Taylor, Harris Insurance Services (THIS) was founded in 1987 to provide specialized insurance for all types of equine risk. THIS places their policies with the highest rated and most secure carriers, meticulously selected for reliability and prompt claims settlement. THIS is proud of their worldwide reputation for responsive and courteous service, and welcomes the opportunity to discuss your equine insurance needs and provide you with a quote.
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• This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.
• Piper Klemm [00:00:35] This is the Plaidcast. I’m Piper Klemm, publisher of the Plaid Horse Magazine. And coming up today, we talk with Olympian Lauren Hough about her incredible career, young professional Skylar Wireman, about what’s next for her riding and new HITS Chief Customer Officer Joe Norick. This episode is brought to you by Taylor Harris Insurance Services. 
• Piper Klemm [00:02:54] Lauren Hough is a three time Pan-American medalist and team Olympic USA rider. Lauren’s extended list of successes began early, earning numerous championships in the Hunter Jumper and equitation rings as a junior rider. Lauren has since represented the United States at seven FEI World Cup Finals, the Olympics in Sydney, Australia and over 40 Nations Cups appearances and has won three medals at the Pan American Games. Welcome to the plaidcast, Lauren. 
• Lauren Hough [00:03:22] Thank you very much. 
• Piper Klemm [00:03:24] Tell us a little bit about what your pathway was like early in life, showing in the junior rings and how you kind of established yourself as an early professional? 
• Lauren Hough [00:03:35] Well, I was very, very lucky that both my parents were very successful in the industry. So I grew up riding basically before I could walk. And I knew from a young age I was very passionate about it and I loved the horses. And with my parents being professionals, it gave me the opportunity to ride for a lot of different trainers and be exposed to some of the best in the country and the world. And I was lucky enough to start my own business in. I think I started in 98 and then shortly thereafter started riding on U.S. teams in early 2000. 
• Catie Staszak [00:04:16] And a lot of great things happening for you. You’re starting kind of a new role. What is that process been like and what are you kind of looking to do now as you work with Beerbaum stables? 
• Lauren Hough [00:04:28] So this all came about, I guess last spring I decided I needed a little break. And really for my whole career, I had never taken a step back and just didn’t want to travel as much. My parents are both getting a bit older. So I had just a small group of horses I – I think the furthest I went to show is in Ocala. Sold most of those come the Fall, and I knew I needed a little bit of a new direction, and it was kind of happenstance. I took a client over to try a horse Ludger stable, and the boy that was here working for Ludger, mentioned that they were maybe looking for someone to run the North American part of it and focus on the sales and training mostly in North America. And I said, you know what, I’ve obviously known Ludger for a long time. And so he and I spoke a couple of times, and then he flew over early January. We had some meetings and it’s really I’m super excited about it. It’s the first time I’ve really had a job since I was, you know, in my early twenties. But I’m enjoying it and I wouldn’t call it. It’s really a collaboration between Ludger and I. We want to bring on some good clients to teach. I’m going to compete myself again. You know, we have the horses hopefully at a high level and then try to focus on the sales a lot. 
• Catie Staszak [00:05:52] And that’s become such a big part of the industry now and in sales. And I’m really looking forward to kind of seeing the approach that you bring and kind of merging. We’ve seen a lot of that with obviously the Beerbaums becoming so involved in the Winter Equestrian Festival and Sport in Wellington, kind of that convergence of American and European sport. How are you going to approach your training in that way and look to bring into the program? 
• Lauren Hough [00:06:17] Well, I think I have a very good eye for what sells in America. Obviously, the amateur and junior division is a huge, huge asset here of the U25 classes. So I think Ludger and I and his team will work together very closely to make sure we bring the right horses that attract the market. We’re we’re looking to sell at. And, you know, we we I don’t know that we’ll focus too much on the young ones here. I think it’s easier to develop them in Europe and a little more cost effective. But we want to we want to sell horses at the highest level and also horses for kids to ride. And I think we’re you know, we’re going to offer many different varieties, but certainly top, top quality. 
• Piper Klemm [00:07:03] Speaking of horses, can you tell our listeners some of the special horses you’ve had throughout your career and maybe you know, something that made them a little special or a little different? 
• Lauren Hough [00:07:15] Hmm. Well, probably most recently would have been Ooh la la. She retired in 2018, I believe. And she was obviously a very small horse. She didn’t think she was small. She jumped all the biggest Grand Prix all over the world. She loved to compete. She was an amazing character. And she knew when she won. And then, you know, there’s been a lot of horses, I would say. Quick Study. He was very successful. He was a difficult horse for me to learn to ride. He had a difficult mouth and I had to reach out to a lot of different people to figure out the right buttons to push with him. But he won five star Grand Prix also all over the world and competed at the World Championships. And then you go back to the likes of Windy City and Clasiko. I rode him in the Sydney Olympics. But there’s also been many, many in between. And I love horses. I love learning from them. I love developing the young ones. I love riding them till the end of their career and also producing and selling. 
• Catie Staszak [00:08:20] I absolutely love seeing Quick study and Ooh la la retired with Cedric. Are they still together at the same place? 
• Lauren Hough [00:08:29] So Cedric and Quick Study are attached at the hip and are retired together at Nick Skelton’s place. And I saw them. I went over and visited in November and they both look incredible. You cannot separate them, though. So and then Ooh La La is still in her breeding career and she lives with my a very, very good, friendly, hopefully near Hickstead. And we’ve got she’s had five foals. I sold two. I’ve kept three and I think I have three more on the way. So when I’m a hundred I’ll be riding them. 
• Catie Staszak [00:09:09] And what stallions have you bred her to? 
• Lauren Hough [00:09:13] The first one we had is a Louis de. We had a Don BHP, which I sold. We’ve had an ARCO which Lisa Hales who owned Arco bought. It was a colt. Well, we’ve had a Verdi and an Emerald I believe and then we have another Emerald on the way and a Diamonte and a my last cartel go this year, I think. 
• Catie Staszak [00:09:37] And the oldest is how old? 
• Lauren Hough [00:09:39] Just three this year. So we’ve got a long ways to go. 
• Catie Staszak [00:09:42] All right. I’ll be making some notes in my calendar for that. 
• Lauren Hough [00:09:45] Yeah. Yeah. 
• Piper Klemm [00:09:49] We’ve talked a lot about on the podcast about how much like people used to ride in the old days and you know, how we’re bringing up young people in the sport who want to be professionals are so many more options for what young people can do and be, but it also kind of leaves them spread more thin. And so they’re not specialists in quite the same way. Can you talk a little bit about how just riding so much as a young person developed your your craft and your ability and. I’m guessing you feel that’s essential to your success?
• Lauren Hough [00:10:24] Yeah, I like I said, I growing up, I did the start in the Pony Hunters and then I did Junior Hunters and equitation and obviously had a passion for the jumpers. But I think the equitation, the hunters obviously taught me a lot. My mother had some of the best hunters in the country. So when I did ride them, if I didn’t miss, I normally would win a blue ribbon, which was always fun. And then I sort of knew when I turned professional that I wanted to focus on the highest level of the sport and ride on U.S. teams. But I think I was really lucky to have the background and the education to finesse my riding with the equitation and the hunters. And I don’t think you see so many people doing all, you know, the hunters and the jumpers anymore. It’s difficult to focus on both and be successful. I think there’s a lot of people that still could, but I think most businesses are a little bit more oriented one way or the other. 
• Catie Staszak [00:11:24] I recently read an article on the Plaid Horse and a young rider. U25 Rider had won a nice class out in the West Coast and she had recently aged out of the equitation ranks and said, You know, they tell you that, you know, the equitation really helps you in the jumper ring. But I didn’t really feel that until today where that came together. And obviously that’s a big difference from here than than in Europe. How do you think the equitation plays a role here in American sport and did you feel that way? 
• Lauren Hough [00:12:01] Yeah. I mean, I think you get to jump a lot more jumper oriented courses and you have to do it stylishly and you know, people can’t see. You don’t want to see any mistakes where in the jumper ring As long as you leave the poles up, it’s good. So. I think the equitation benefited me in that way. I think I put too much pressure on myself as a kid that I had to win the finals and I had to do this and I had to that or I thought my life was over, but it’s really not. I did win. I think I won the USET finals some years back, but I never won the Medal or Maclay. 
• Catie Staszak [00:12:35] We’re going to have to take that quote and like played on loop for some young riders. 
• Lauren Hough [00:12:39] At that time, I was like super devastated and thought, Oh my God, I don’t have this on my CV, but. It taught me a lot. It taught me how to handle pressure. And I do think it’s good, but I don’t think it’s the end of your life if you don’t win it all. 
• Piper Klemm [00:13:00] As you’re moving into kind of yet another stage of of collaborating and working with people in kind of a different way than you have been. What are some like work skills, business skills that you are thinking about maybe a little differently or just are reminded of how important they are? I think this being a lifelong career with kind of the same people puts our industry in a really unique spot for like how we have to interact with everyone else. 
• Lauren Hough [00:13:27] Hmm. Well, I think what I’m most excited about is that I have this amazing team that I’ve stepped into. You know, you’ve got Philip Weissout, Ludger, They have got secretaries there. You know, it’s just it’s an incredible outlet where we work really together as a team and everybody gives their opinion about, you know what I always send videos daily of horses I’ve tried or horses I might be interested in or horses we’re trying to sell and we collaborate really well. And I’ve sort of always done this a bit on my own. You know, I’ve had help from amazing trainers, but I’ve never really been part of a larger team, and so I’m really looking forward to that a lot. 
• Piper Klemm [00:14:11] And what are you looking forward to this coming year in terms of travel and horse shows? And you know as. 
• Lauren Hough [00:14:20] Well, we’ll finish out here. We’ll do the spring shows here. We have an amazing farm here,  which used to be the old winsome farm, which funny enough, I used to rent that place for ten years and then moved out when they bought it. And now I’m back. But we have an amazing facility there and I have one student that I just started helping. Her name’s Anna Dryden. She’s been with the beerbaum team for some years now and we’ll probably do a little bit of Kentucky in the spring, maybe Devon and maybe Upperville and then she’ll I think we’ll probably go to Europe for some time. I will try to, depending on what horses we have I’ll compete where, you know, I think the horses are the most marketable and you know, we might go on the road for three or four weeks and then come back to Florida and take a little break for two weeks and then start again. And I probably in September might go to Europe for a month and then we’ll bring a big group over to sell in the winter. 
• Piper Klemm [00:15:23] Sounds great. Well, Lauren, thank you for joining us on the plaidcast. 
• Lauren Hough [00:15:26] Thank you very much. My pleasure. 
• Piper Klemm [00:16:28] Skylar Wireman is a top hunter and jumper rider who recently turned professional. She finished her junior career as a 2022 reserve champion at the Washington International Horse Show Equitation Finals reserve champion at the Dover USEF Hunt Seat Finals, third at the North American Equitation Finals and champion at the Gladstone Equitation Cup. Daughter of trainer Shane Wireman, Skylar has been a regular on the show circuit for many years and is known as a fantastic catch Rider. She won her first Grand Prix as a professional this January at the Desert International Horse Park. 
• Piper Klemm [00:17:00] Let’s talk about your junior career. And it was a fairy tale on on many fronts. And talk about what it was like. You grew up riding with your mom, who’s a trainer. And I think what’s so interesting about you is that every time you had a career to do something, every time you had an opportunity to do something bigger, you you really stepped up. And so many riders do really well at what they do, and then they get that opportunity to step up and. They’re very average, frankly. And I would watch you ride a ton growing up and catch it and ride a lot of green ponies and go through all that stuff. And the first time I really took notice was when you went to Brandywine and flew in to Devon for junior hunter finals and you just kept such extreme calm under pressure under brand new situations, brand new everything. And you held your own that first year so much. And that was kind of from the outside. The first time that I was like, I was like, Oh, she’s she’s really cool in big situations. 
• Skylar Wireman [00:18:12] Yeah. So for me, I think I started catch riding when I was fairly little. You know, it was one a local county trainer, actually, that was like gave me a green pony and, you know, kind of it was my first time that anyone gave me a pony that was really truly it was really green. And I got to, like, develop it. And then once that one sold to, then bought a four year old Western broke pony, it was like, okay, now here’s the medium, here’s your next one. And I was like, Oh boy, it doesn’t. The other one kind of knew how to jump a little bit, but this one was like it just had a Western, you know, 3o days of Western training on it. So it was pretty much starting from scratch with that one. And I ended up taking it to pony finals 2 years after I got him. 
• Piper Klemm [00:18:52] How old are you at this point? 
• Skylar Wireman [00:18:54] I would say that I would have been at probably somewhere around eight or nine when I when she gave me that pony. Probably nine. And when she sent that one to us, the, you know, 30 days of Western training and let me bring along and then as I think I was probably around 11, when I showed it at pony finals two years later and it was my first time to Pony Finals and of course, it was his first time to Pony Finals. I showed him the medium greens. So that was kind of my first real catch ride. And then from there, just kind of more and more people started to, you know, start with the they put me on ponies. I rode a ton of ponies when I was little, and then I started getting kind of tall and they were like, okay, let’s ride some horses now. And then, you know, I did a lot of catch riding when I was younger in the ponies for Traci and Carleton Brooks. I won pony finals on their pony. So it kind of that’s where a lot of it started. And then they started to have junior hunters for me and I just did I think I did a lot of, you know, so much catch riding out here on the West Coast. And then and, you know, it’s my kind of like motto has always been just to like, have fun and like, love doing it. Like, love doing it for like being around the horses and everything. And so and when you’re having fun, then when you win it’s icing on the cake. So I think that especially like in the big pressure situations, it’s like just like looking at how fun and exciting it is to be at a show. Like, you know Junior Hunter Finals at Devon? You know, and. So that’s kind of a bit of my earlier junior year was on those ponies. 
• Piper Klemm [00:20:30] So you move on and really start diving into the equition stuff with with fantastic and probably some of the most consistent results of just about anyone doing the equitation. What was it like doing all those big horse shows at the same time? Your mom has clients at home, you’re kind of split and in all directions. It’s not just, you know, going out to the East Coast and and riding and training. You’re going back and forth. You’re making stuff happen for other people. You know, you’re you’re really invested and involved in your mom’s business while while she’s invested and involved in your career. 
• Skylar Wireman [00:21:07] Right. Yeah. So my first I did I did go to indoors once, I think it was in maybe 2018. That was my first year. I did, you know, I just went for a couple of the finals, I did the 3’3″ and and I think I just did NHS that year and then the next year we still kind of I just had my one junior hunter who he did capital Challenge and I had won the Under Saddle ended up WCHR national 3’3″ champion that year which the funny fact about that is all of those WCHR shows I did at home were not a single one did I have my own horse though they were all catch rides that I rode in WCHR weeks and then I took my horse to Capital Challenge and won there and ended up National Champion. So that was kind of a fun fact, is that I all the points I got throughout the year were all on catch rides. And then I took my horse to  the finals and everything and he also did dover finals that year and that was my first year doing him at Maclay finals. And, you know, I just got got to I only had, you know, my junior hunter was all I had. So he he played both roles. And then the next year I ended up taking the hot pants horse that that Lisa Halterman graciously let me loaned to me for several years of my junior career and I won a lot with that horse. And I actually ended up sixth at Maclay finals that year, and that’s when Andre noticed me. And so kind of after that, like 2020 was kind of my breakout year. I won Talent Search finals that year and I was sixth at Maclay Nationals that year. And from there it just kind of, you know, I started doing equiatation with Andre and definitely I was very much split between the West Coast and the East Coast, mainly West Coast. But there was weeks when, you know, there was too much going on at home, and so my mom couldn’t go with me. So she just sent me on my own and I would just go in the show in Florida for a week or kind of whatever needed to happen. We are. We made it happen. And then it just you know, I think I just the last year, which was last year, I actually did most of the finals on a horse that I created and, you know, made them into an equitation horse on my own. He came to me as a meter 30 jumper that the owner was like, I want to make him a, everyone says he needs to be an equitation horse. So she kind of like to send him to us as a sale horse. And he was at our barn and I did all the work on him and equitationized him, and he ended up being the horse that I was second at Washington on and second at Dover Finals on this past year. So that was kind of fun. And, you know, Andre helped with that when I was on the East Coast and everything. And then I did use Charisma for a couple of the finals and I won the WEC Eq class on Charisma. So definitely, but I had only ridden Charisma three times when I won that WEC class. I literally showed him two weeks in Florida in one class each week, and then I showed him in the Derby the day before the WEC class. I pretty much I didn’t wride him off for the whole month in between, so I was like, how many times have you ridden him? Like, not very much. I pretty much just started riding him. So that’s kind of. 
• Piper Klemm [00:24:13] So that’s the WEC Equitation cup. And and you won that and you won a car when you just got when you were just getting your license and didn’t actually have a car. 
• Skylar Wireman [00:24:23] That’s correct. Yeah. I, I went there with the intention of trying to win that class because the, the choice was if I wanted to show that much that there was not going to be any money to buy me a car. So I was like, well, I got to win your car. I was like, Well, let’s go try and win the car. And I did. So it was kind of really funny. 
• Piper Klemm [00:24:41] So then last year we’re all sitting at thermal when the EHV outbreak happened and. Everyone’s kind of stuck. So you all go home immediately. You know, you and your mom have a private farm, which is kind of rare in California. A lot of people didn’t have options. And then also, we didn’t really know that the outbreak was happening when a lot of people went home. So like, talk about how you handled that whole situation and and what you were deciding between. And I think you made a kind of a unique call and how you handle all that. 
• Skylar Wireman [00:25:18] Yeah. So we most of our horses, we actually didn’t really have any horses that were out thermal that week. So all of my horses went home week three because I was going to Florida to show that week. So I, we only had a couple of horses there. So those horses came home as soon as we found out. And you know, we are lucky enough to have our own facility and we do have a couple of stalls that are very isolated. So we just quarantined those couple of horses and did our due diligence of, you know, the 14 days of temperatures and everything and making sure everything was good and everyone was good. So once we were cleared, we actually decided that I needed to get young rider points. And since there was no telling how long we were going to be shut down in California, we had previously, when the whole when COVID happened and Pony finals got canceled, we made an adventure to WEC Ohio and we actually loved it there. So we gave them a call and we’re like, you know, kind of told them the situation. And they were like, As long as you’ve done your, you know, taken the time and done all the everything that needed to be done to be cleared by USEF, we’re fine with you coming. So we actually packed up and we left, went to Ohio, while California was shut down. A lot of people went to Florida, but we went to Ohio and we were going to stay for two weeks. And then we were having so much fun. We decided to stay for four weeks and finish out the circuit there. And I actually won my very first Grand Prix ever there on my homebred, which is special. So I brought her along and I ended up winning my first American standard Grand Prix on her. So that was kind of our our whole we made the best of it. We were thrown lemons and we made lemonade out of them because there was, you know, we didn’t we were home mostly, and we did what we needed to do to make sure everyone was safe. And then we hired a private trailer that, you know, a driver and trailer that was totally private. And they drove straight through. And we had fun in Ohio. 
• Piper Klemm [00:27:17] And that was kind of an economic decision, right? Like talk about the economics of going to Ohio for a world equestrian center for those weeks instead of anywhere else. 
• Skylar Wireman [00:27:26] Yeah. I mean, so we had having known that we went there for, we, you know, we loved the facility and everything and, and it was, it, it was really just that there was kind of it’s a little bit of a smaller show circuit. So, you know, everyone kind of goes to Florida. And I mean, who wants to go to Ohio when it’s 13 degrees? And it was snowing on us up there, which we thought was great. We had fun in the snow. We went out and played in the snow and we’re like, we don’t get snow in Southern California where we are. So we were like, snow, Oh, my gosh. And the horses were like terrified of it. But so, you know, it’s kind of was a choice that we knew that there would be a little bit of it’ll be a little bit easier for me to get young riders points rather than in Florida, where there’s, you know, sometimes hundreds in the class. And it definitely paid off well, you know, I got lots of points there and lots of good experience, and it was more indoor show experience, which we also don’t have. And I mean, that was kind of our main decision and ended up, you know, we could stay where it was just easy. We could stay right across the street in the mobile homes. And it just we honestly love showing there like it’s one of our favorite places to show. So we would go back anytime. 
• Piper Klemm [00:28:41] So fast forward. Okay, So we get through the summer last year. What does your summer look like? 
• Skylar Wireman [00:28:48] My summer. It started at junior hunter finals. Our finals was kind of the biggest part of summer, early summer, which is where I was champion 3’6″ small junior hunter, which was nice. My last my last year I ended up champion and I actually ended up overall Grand Reserve champion. And then I also won the Gladstone Cup. So definitely Junior Hunter Finals was a big it was a big last year. That’s right. A good a good last junior year junior Hunter finals and Gladstone and. Then after that, the next kind of biggest thing with young riders I got to, I qualified as the traveling reserve and got to go compete at young riders for the the junior team, which was really, really great experience and a lot of fun, a lot of memories made there. So that was really awesome. And I ended up with a couple of ribbons top top eight, top ten finishes. It’s very fun. And then after that, we kind of we we just went for that one week and then back home we had our local more local West Coast and California finals were starting. CPHA was a a lot of them are the foundation finals was one that had kind of I’ve been I’ve been knocking on the door for a few years and 2020 I was reserve champion and the next year I had an unfortunate, the horse I was catch riding stopped at the trot jump in the first round, then I got a 96 in the second round. So it was kind of a bummer that year. And then this year I just I led, I was second after the first round and then after that I just led all the way through and it was actually a pretty gnarly work off they gave us that year, but I ended up winning the finals. Of that. And that was pretty much my summer as the big, you know, junior hunter finals and all that stuff. 
• Piper Klemm [00:30:33] Do you remember what was in that gnarly workoff? 
• Skylar Wireman [00:30:36] I do, actually. First of all, they told us to drop or take our stirrups off our saddle and we were all outside and they’re like, ‘Please take your stirrups off.’ We’re like, ‘Oh, no’. And and then when they start reading off the test, you know, the first jump we had to canter to was the triple bar line, triple bar to a tight six to a vertical, I think it was. And then we had to roll back to a trot jump. This is all without our stirrups of course. And we’re like, oh, we were all looking at each other going, oh my gosh, they’re trying to kill us. And then we had to jump another single, and then we had to halt by the gate and do a turn on the forehand. And then we had to demonstrate two changes of lead on the way to the next oxer, which I did two changes of the lead, and they didn’t specify, but a lot of people ended up going like real kind of slow and like protected the oxer. And I was like, you know, I’m going to show off. And I kind of did my two changes early and then picked up a gallop and then we had to sit the trot back to the line, I believe. So the pretty we were looking at how many more jumps are we jumping? You know, it’s a pretty long test without our stirrups. And it definitely the first jump being the triplebar they all you know you got to get enough canter to get across it and not just jump super high. So it was it was a pretty hard test. 
• Piper Klemm [00:31:47] I bet it was satisfying to meet that challenge. 
• Skylar Wireman [00:31:48] It was, yeah. And I was thinking, I don’t know if I ever jumped without stirrups on this horse because I don’t honestly practice jumping without stirrups at home, I flat without stirrups. But I don’t always jump without stirrups. I ride him bareback and jump, but I just didn’t think I jumped that horse and he does have a bit of a rounder jump. And I was like, We’ll see how this goes. So. 
• Piper Klemm [00:32:07] You mentioned earlier equitationizing, I believe was the word you used. What does that entail? How do you you know, what goes into it kind of goes back to that earlier thing. You know, when you talked about developing the pony, what goes into developing and producing an equitation horse for for that level of competition? 
• Skylar Wireman [00:32:26] I think a key thing is that one of the biggest things is especially that horse coming over being a jumper. It really liked a lot of feeling being really up to the base of the jumps and you know, a lot of times in the equitation there’s a lot of half stride lines and they want to see you know, be able to gallop up and do you know, canter forward and really get the stride if it’s a little bit they said a little long or whatever. And I think the biggest key factor into that is just starting with basic flat work and adjustability and, you know, having a horse that’s. An even leaded horse is helpful but that’s that can be like very much based on the horse not all horses are even leaded. But I think a lot of flat work and just teaching them, you know, sometimes they counter canter jumpers and stuff, but not always, you know, they just do like lateral work. So I think a really well broke horse that you really feel in sync with. And then other than that, just jumping, you know, at home we have a lot of like skinny brick walls and I’ll stick a flower box on top just kind of you never know, especially at the indoor finals like maclay. What kind of weird jumps they’re going to put in there? There’s, you know, jumps without standards and kind of spooky walls. They can put kind of oddball things in there. So I just kind of, you know, we put random things, walls and little like skinny gates and just decorations around the ring just kind so that they’re like expecting whatever might come out of the turn. You never know what might come out of each corner. So I think that’s the biggest thing is just little, almost like cross-country type jumps in a way because they’re just like narrow and odd looking and they just have to kind of learn to just be right there with you. And they really the biggest thing is them being in sync with you so that whatever you think, they know what you’re thinking, being really in tune and, you know, looking for the next thing because. We ask weird things of them in the equitation.
• Piper Klemm [00:34:20] Yeah, it’s weird things, but it’s so like at its core, it’s like watching all those finals for. So I had this conversation with some of the other day that, um, I have watched at least one, but usually to entire equitation finals every year for the last 11 years of that of the big four. And I like sit and watch all day like not chat with other people. I watch plenty more of them chatting with other people. 
• Piper Klemm [00:34:47] Um. 
• Piper Klemm [00:34:48] And so like by my calculation, I’ve watched, you know, like at least 2000 equitation finals rounds, which I think is a really good sample size. And like it’s at its core, it’s really, does your horse go forward, come back, move off each leg, you know, like it’s the most basic skills. And of course, you know, it’s reaction time and and the most challenging level of these skills. But but that’s really what it comes down to. And bravery is a huge part of this. But that bravery in a lot of ways is are they moving off your leg and listening to you? 
• Skylar Wireman [00:35:24] Yeah. Yeah. They can’t be. They can’t be too cold or else, you know, you have a, a short line for line. If they’re late to react, they’re just going to be very. You know, with the game and kind of, you know, they need to be forward enough off your leg, sharp enough and just kind of and a lot of times they’re kind of careful horses and which is where a careful jumper is sometimes good but you they can’t be too careful or else then they might not be brave enough so it’s finding that happy medium and getting, you know, if you have a horse, a of it, you know, maybe it wasn’t the most careful jumper or maybe it was a spookier jumper. And they’re like, it’s not just the bigger jumps. That’s where they fit in really well as an equotation horse or a lot of times they’re too slow. That’s what this horse’s case was. He was too slow as a jumper. So he liked the slower equitation much better. And all I had to do was just find to him. I just jumped honestly, a lot of low jumps to him. But, you know, there was going to be a little softer contact and, you know, like, oh, there’s going to be a little a long gap distance here and kind of just showing him whatever he might see in equitation in terms of even like, you know, just like the weird bending lines and just the fact that it’s a little bit less work, less pressure, less contact and more about just thinking they go for and they look forward to the next jump, kind of like expecting what would come. 
• Piper Klemm [00:36:43] So we all kind of have heard like horror stories of equitation over the years. I actually think that it’s it’s gotten better in terms of preparation, you know, what’s it like in today’s world going into the finals? I think a lot of people, like my age and older, especially, you know, really think of equititation finals and they think of like the midnight lessons and, you know, just grueling nature of it. And and I’m not saying it’s not challenging, but I think I do think it’s gotten slightly more humane, at least. Do you want to talk to that a little bit? 
• Skylar Wireman [00:37:14] I think it has. Certainly there’s you see some that, you know, there’s there’s a lot that are they do do, you know, a couple of lessons or they ride them several times before the finals. And I think certainly like there’s some horses that might be a little hotter horse that needs to go and work enough to get a little bit quiet. But I do think it’s definitely gotten like theres oh, you think of Harrisburg and the only time to get in the ring is from like, you know, 11 to 1 a.m.. So, of course, you know, the ones that haven’t gotten to get in there are definitely going to be in there hacking. And and, you know, with my, you know, my theory with those horses like my horse, I pretty much got up in the morning just did a light hack to see kind of where he was. And then if he was a little fresh I’d get on him again, closer to the class and just make sure he felt right. And mainly I get like most of the class that is like kind of warmed up and loose and just feeling like I didn’t. I never lunged my horses. I personally don’t like lunging, so I’d rather just get on and go canter for 15 minutes, let them just loosen up and just kind of feel ready. But I think it’s definitely gone. There’s a lot there’s a lot less of the like midnight lessons and crazy prep, but there is still some of it. 
• Piper Klemm [00:38:26] Now that you’re thinking about your own program and your own riders, you know, how are you thinking about some of these things differently? And, you know, how do you think about finals and championships and getting a rider ready? 
• Skylar Wireman [00:38:39] I think like one kind of key thing that I think we just, you know, like with we had Ronny much out here, which is under the lights. So we are lucky enough with our own property. We do have our lights on our arena. So sometimes in preparation for the classes like this or even for indoors, I prep the horses by jumping them at night actually under the lights, because in a lot of those indoors, the jumps can look different once the lights on it because there’s a bit of a shine to it with some of the lighting inside or if there are night classes outside there. But it can change the look on the jumps. There’s shadows sometimes at night or just the glare on the jumps or, you know, Liverpool might be shining with water, a lot of those things. So I think that’s kind of a thing that we do is we do sometimes we’ll do like evening lessons later after school. That way they get the chance to ride the kids, get a chance to ride under the lights and kind of feel how how much the horse might back up a little bit more with the glare on the jump for the reflection of some wall or something that can be a little shiny. I think that’s that’s one of the biggest things is just feeling comfortable with. How they look different. The horse may be like, okay, my horse doesn’t really look, but under the lights everything becomes a little bit further away and you have to ride a little bit stronger. So that’s kind of one of our big things now. 
• Piper Klemm [00:39:56] And a lot of horses just aren’t used to being ridden like after dinner. And, you know, I think about a lot of these classes, like at the National Horse Show. Yeah. When they, like, hack the some of the hacks go at like six or 7 p.m. and most horses are like ehhhh. 
• Skylar Wireman [00:40:13] Like we’re done for the night. We’re ready for bed. Yeah. 
• Piper Klemm [00:40:17] But yeah, yeah. Practicing all of these different elements is kind of a fascinating part of this. So what do you have to look forward to this year? What are you excited about? 
• Skylar Wireman [00:40:31] For me this year. I again what one of my big goals is working on qualifying for young riders, this time for the the A-Team or the the true young young rider team. The big one as I’m too old for the junior team now. So now it’s time for the big stuff. And I’m also hoping that I have a newer horse and I’m hoping that once I get to know him and we kind of get going a bit, hopefully I’ll start to go do some of the bigger maybe a step into like the 155 ring and start to do some of the World Cup qualifiers later this season starting in September. You know, I’ve been doing the 150d well, for sure. This year started more consistently and I’ve done quite a few on five days now. And you know, I won that first, which was a surprise to all of us. But we’re going to I we’re saying I’ll do more FEI this year as well. My first FEI, other than young riders, was actually the four star in Vegas last year, which I did. I didn’t do the World Cup qualifier, but I did the kind of the earlier in the week classes before the class that World Cup qualifier went. And that was my first kind of big FEI event. So I’m going to probably do some of the FEI at the Oaks and potentially the the week of the five star at the Oaks, the Nation’s Cup week. Obviously, we don’t know yet if I’m into that, not to do the Nations Cup. But the again like the earlier in the week classes and mainly the biggest goal is just getting. Getting more time in the ring in that the bigger ring and starting to jump those bigger tracks in those 155 tracks as well. I was starting to be like the World Cup qualifiers. That’s that’s the main goal this year. 
• Piper Klemm [00:42:15] Skylar Wyman, thank you for joining us on the plaidcast. 
• Skylar Wireman [00:42:19] Thank you. 
• [00:43:37]  
• Piper Klemm [00:43:39] Joe Norick is the new chief customer officer at HITS Shows. As a lifelong equestrian, Joe began his career under the training of the legendary Ralph Caristo. He continued his education at Fox Field Riding Club in Westlake Village, California, and then at Sam and Libby Edelman’s SNL farms in North Salem, New York, and Wellington, Florida. In the early 2000s, Joe launched a career in the equine insurance business. Joe presently oversees a portfolio of farm and ranch properties, equine mortality and high net worth clients for a Alliant private client, where he will continue to serve as an advisor. Welcome to the plaidcast, Joe. 
• Joe Norick [00:44:15] Thank you so much, Piper. Always a pleasure to speak with you. 
• Joe Norick [00:44:18] So we are just wrapping up the HITs Ocala season. A lot has changed this year. Can you talk a little bit about what some of those changes were and kind of the history of Ocala? I always think it’s it’s interesting in current times, the landscape’s changed so much so quickly. But Hits has been there for 40 some odd years. 
• Joe Norick [00:44:40] You know, there have been a lot of changes and all for the good times. Tom built an amazing foundation for us with hits in Ocala at first down the street, then of course, ultimately at Post Time Farm. And I was brought on board in late in 22. I joined around October and since then we were able to start what we would call our first phase. We aggressively went after cleaning up the property and bringing it to its once old luster. We added a lot of new arenas. We brought in New Footing Partners in Wordley Martin, who did a sensational job. We built four arenas with them and fantastic, great results. And I think we made the clients a very happy as well as our own hits team, led by the Metzger’s redoing the other arenas, and they were all sensational. Whether you jumped in a Wordley Martin Ring or one of our rings, we seemed to have great responses from the clients. We did have very limited rain this year, but when it did rain, it rained hard. And most all of our rings, I would say, were in great shape. And I was thrilled with that. We took the time to to clean the facility. I’ve said it before, but that was a big deal. Cleaning the facility. We groomed the trees. We made sure we brought in some of the best botanists to come around, look at the health of the trees. We put cartridges in the ground with the nutrients they needed to keep some of these majestic oak trees looking and keeping them in a healthy way. So we were happy to do that. If you look at the property today, it’s a beautiful place and we have a long way to go. Phase two will start this year. Additionally, it’s probably three more Wordley Martin rings plus additional work they’ve done around the property, fixing the paddocks and painting and redoing the barns and changing light fixtures and working on electrical new roadways. We did a lot of paving this year. We patched as many or all the potholes we could find, but there’s always new ones and we will continue to work to just make hits. Ocala, a very special destination for all of our exhibitors. 
• Piper Klemm [00:46:46] That’s the case that every horse show facility, no matter how aggressive they are about potholes. 
• Joe Norick [00:46:51] I hate driving my golf cart and spilling a cup of coffee, so we work diligently to make sure there’s no potholes for myself and everyone else who attends. 
• Piper Klemm [00:47:02] So. Okay, so phase two is going to start pretty much as soon as everybody leaves. I think Ocala is so horse friendly and I think that that kind of gets a little overlooked in the conversations. But even just things like you mentioned the paddocks and, you know, different aspects for horses to be horses that we we really don’t have that option at many facilities in the country. 
• Joe Norick [00:47:25] So true. You know, we have 500 plus acres there, many paddocks well in excess of 100 plus paddocks. And this year we’re going to go and fill the paddocks, reseed them so they’ll all be beautiful. Hopefully by the time our clients arrive next year we are putting in some new structures to lock down the paddocks in between so they don’t get used to when people arrive. Their paddocks are in beautiful shape. We have gorgeous trails, there’s lots of places to ride around the post time farm and it’s so pretty and it is beautiful from the standpoint of we don’t have a lot of concrete. We are really a facility dedicated to horsemen and horse friendly exhibitors. We want you to feel like you’re in a safe, natural environment with trees and grass and places that your horses can be horses. 
• Piper Klemm [00:48:15] The landscape of Southern California horse shows has changed a lot. People have a lot of options. I viewed that as a really good thing this winter. I felt like people were floating around a fair amount you had. We saw plenty of people from Wellington come up to Ocala. Plenty of Ocala. People got out of Wellington, Terranova, other places for a few weeks. Houses, kind of just culture changing. I mean, I was thinking about it the other day, and we’re all like very nomadic people. That’s why we chose this lifestyle. We like to be on the move. And so almost like planting for months and months and months at a time, which many people have done in Florida. You know, it’s also it’s a little bit like orthogonal to to how many of us like to live our lives. 
• Joe Norick [00:48:59] You know, when you look at the new landscape in the Ocala area, we’re fortunate. We have some top show facilities. I look at ours and ah, of course our neighbor WBC, right down the street, two completely different show venues. We look at it from a very outdoorsy point of view. We show in outdoor arenas, we’ve got places to trail ride and do all the things you’d want to do as a horseman. And we love that. Our neighbor down the street, magnificent facility, beautifully built, and it’s great to have both options within five or six miles of each other. I think it makes an equestrian have that much more variety. And there’s something for everybody. And that’s the greatest part of being in Ocala. 
• Piper Klemm [00:49:43] Absolutely. And I think, you know what for the last how many years, people have asked me about hits and WEC and I have maintained the same answer. I think I’ve even had this conversation with you many times, is that a rising tide lifts all ships. All this investment into Ocala is good for everyone, and everyone has choices and everyone is thriving right now. I mean, all of these show facilities Wellington Terranova, HITS, WEC, Live oak like every one of these things. Different venues serve different purposes and offer different things. And week to week are very different. Every one is thriving right now. I read recently that there are over 5000 horses showing in the state of Florida every week this winter. 
• Joe Norick [00:50:26] Which is great and it’s great for all of our clients and exhibitors and all the people we touch across the horse industry to give them a destination. Let’s face it, you can be in Wellington to Ocala three and a half hours. It’s not that far away. So when you have the choices like Wellington, WEC and Hits three great choices, three great venues, you know, I enjoyed this year being able to work with the community so beautifully. We moved up our week nine Grand Prix, the 10 a.m. start time so that everyone could easily get over to Live Oak and enjoy Chester Webber’s Horse show, which is a great horse show, World Cup qualifier right down the street. Once again, we add another dimension to Ocala. Three great horse shows running in one weekend with enormous prize money. You don’t see that every day in every community. 
• Piper Klemm [00:51:12] So let’s shift gears to talk about some of the other hits properties. Another conversation I have a lot is that I think people don’t realize how underserved the New York City market is in the current moment. And it’s like hard to even say that because it seems so strange. You know, growing up in I grew up in Pennsylvania in Zone two like just I mean, the New York shows were popping out of your eyeballs and and there are some there are some facilities and some great, really great local A shows that do a really good job all winter. You obviously have a Hampton Classic out on Long Island. You have the Lake Placid Horse shows way north in June. But in terms of like routine premier Double-A, for those of us still, still thinking in the dark ages and our brains, you don’t have quite all the terminology mastered. I mean, there’s not a lot going on in that greater New York City area all the time. I think Saugerties is more important than ever. Can you talk to us about the investment in Saugerties and kind of where you see that that going? 
• Piper Klemm [00:52:17] You know that I’m anxious to talk about Saugerties. This is one of my favorite spots, and it is a location that we’ve decided to to really do a lot with. I look at it as almost being one of our jewels. So Saugerties is already under construction, has been under construction. Wordley, Martin is putting in at least three rings prior to our spring start. We have slated for six rings from Wordley Martin over the next two years to be installed, plus redoing all the other rings. We’re going to give it a complete overhaul for phase one. And many of the things that people didn’t enjoy about Saugerties, I think they will. We’re going to improve some of our food. We’re going to redo the bathrooms. We’re going to fix the roadways or redoing the bridges. We’re actually doing complete changes on some of the buildings from the restaurant to the vendor buildings, bathrooms and horseshow office, which is going to give everyone a much greater feeling on the showgrounds. We’re making it really friendly. That’s our goal. We want to make hits a place you want to come to and enjoy being in. 
• Piper Klemm [00:53:24] And then you have another jewel in and Hits Culpeper, which is not not too far from D.C. and near some major airports there. Can you talk to us a little bit about Culpeper and what you see happening there? 
• Piper Klemm [00:53:39] Culpeper is one of my favorite spots. I can remember way back when when the Zips built that facility. And that is an area we’re putting a lot of love in as well. We’ve knocked down a lot of structures and cleaned up and removed a lot of the debris that was there. We’ve been redoing the arenas. I know three rings are completely done already and more will be done over the course of the summer. I think Culpeper is being one of our more beautiful spots because of the location. You’re right. One hour to D.C. and it’s just such a great location and such a fabulous community down in Virginia that we look forward to catering to and welcoming back those exhibitors we’ve lost over the years. 
• Piper Klemm [00:54:26] And again, that’s a huge market that I would say is not as underserved as New York City right now. But we have seen just such motion. And it’s it’s been feast or famine for horse shows. It’s what the good ones are wildly successful. And then we’ve seen a lot of heritage horse shows or smaller venues, you know, really struggle in the last few years as people migrate to Traverse City and leave New England or, you know, for example, or all these different things in the summer. To me, fixing our sport, the most important thing we can do is have horse shows where people can sleep in their own beds and don’t need to travel as much. I mean, the only way we make our sport less expensive is less travel like that. That’s the only pathway, frankly, I can see. And so I think the more in these very populated areas and and great communities that we have viable horse show options, as you said that people want to go to, I think that strengthens our sport and our numbers tremendously. I think that helps horses a better quality of life on the circuit. And and there’s a lot to be helpful for here. 
• Joe Norick [00:55:33] I completely agree. You know, I look at that with the clients from the East Coast to travel to Michigan and drive right past hits. I’m hoping we can make hits an option for them, a destination in Saugerties. Same thing applies to Virginia. There’s a lot of wonderful local trainers and amazing owners, and I think over the years they were frustrated with hits, frustrated with Culpeper, frustrated with Saugerties. I’m hoping the turnaround we’re putting forth and the way we’re beautifying these properties and giving them top riding conditions and good food and clean bathrooms is a goal we strive for every day. And this is a new era of hits. We are looking to build a brand that was a great brand. We’re just trying to make it better. 
• Piper Klemm [00:56:17] And then let’s talk about Vermont. I think this kind of I forget the exact year, but the hits being the owner of Vermont kind of all happen during the pandemic. I think the way the timing is worked out, people haven’t really gotten to enjoy so many of the great things Vermont has to offer the last few summers just because of the position that we’ve all been in. 
• Joe Norick [00:56:41] You know, Vermont is a beautiful space. We’re looking to make big changes here this year. We’re going to open up the tents a little bit, increase the size of the isles. Joe Donnelly will be there as our manager. We’re very excited about that again – him returning. We’re putting again, as we are in all the facilities, better food, cleaner bathrooms, making it a place that people can enjoy. Vermont has always had a very special client base that would go there. The exhibitors that go love Vermont and they love that family time. And we’re trying to bring back that family atmosphere there. And of course, now that we’re getting a little bit further past. The brunt of the pandemic. I think people are starting to travel more and feel more comfortable and and engage more at the shows. And we’re looking forward to hosting and making them feel welcome. 
• Piper Klemm [00:57:29] It is kind of interesting. You know, back to our Ocala conversation is that there is so much happening in Ocala. So many people have moved there full time, year round and they are looking for a summer circuit. And I think choice is more interesting than ever because if you’ve decided to invest in Ocala and put your full time, your farm there, I mean, it is just as easy to go to any of these circuits. You know, once you’re on the road, you’re on the road at some level to choose any circuit you might want in the summer. And and it really forces the horse shows to be, you know, competitive and offer really premier options for exhibitors. 
• Joe Norick [00:58:08] You know, I absolutely agree. You know, there is a strong economic base locating in Ocala and all of Florida, for that matter. And I think as long as everyone is seeing a great winner circuit, there’s options. There is an option to stay in the local area. WEC does provide that beautifully with their covered in indoor arenas. Then you can also look at Kentucky or try on and I’m sure I’m missing something by maybe traveling to Michigan. But you know, these are people will have choices to do. They can also easily come on up north to Vermont and Saugerties as well. Like you said, once you’re in the truck and you’re driving, it’s pretty easy. But the fact that there are so many options does make all of us as or show owners strive to put a better product out there to give the exhibitor a quality choice. And that’s our goal. 
• Piper Klemm [00:58:58] Absolutely. Well, Joe, where will we be seeing you this summer? 
• Joe Norick [00:59:04] I will be on a plane a lot because we haven’t even talked about Del Mar that launches in July. July 12th will be the opening of the of the Horse Park Dale Harvey. He’ll be leading the hunt for us out there. And we’re very excited about Dale and his team. And we we think that will be an amazing addition to the West Coast having a show part back up. There’ll be an enormous amount of changes from rings and footing stabling. You know, give you an idea. The grass field is beautiful and will be equal to. Or better than it’s ever been. The stalls. We’ve enlarged from the old ten by tens, the ten by 12. What should be so much nicer for everybody. We’ve repositioned some of the rings to give more space. We’ve utilized ebb and flow in many of the arenas, so I think we’re going to see another great facility on the West Coast, which I’m sure they could use at this point. And they’ll we’ll do a great job, as we all know. 
• Piper Klemm [01:00:03] Absolutely. So, yeah, a little geography for of of Southern California horse shows for people who are not there much. So Delmar, California used to be one of the premier horse show locations on the West Coast because they had these two incredible facilities at Del Mar Fairgrounds, which is attached to the racetrack, literally right down the street from Show Park of Del Mar. And both of these facilities, for various reasons and various things, essentially fell out of favor, gotten a little bit of disrepair, and it was a huge hit to the community. There’s there’s so much there’s so many great farms in that greater San Diego area. It’s not far from Orange County, that Greater L.A. area. And it was kind of this like hole missing in Southern California for these top horse shows. And because of two groups now, they’re they’re both being revitalized with Alley Nail versions Group. They started a winter series at the Del Mar Fairgrounds down the street and then hits with Dale Harvey is taking over Show Park, which has a huge beautiful grass Grand Prix field. And so by revitalizing both of these, it’s we’re going to see Southern California, Del Mar and that Temecula region we’re going to see in the next five years what we’ve seen in Ocala in the last five years, which is incredibly exciting. 
• Joe Norick [01:01:39] You know, I completely agree. The project at Del Mar Show Park, we are going full tilt. There was a major renovation needed. I would say the 40 years or whatever number of years that park has been built for. It’s taken its toll and we’re putting a beautiful face on it. And we’re looking forward to having all the exhibitors on the West Coast and whoever was willing to travel there because it is a gorgeous place and I can’t think of a better place to spend my summer than in Del Mar. If I was near California with our group of horse shows, you know, we have Delmar, we have Chicago, Vermont, Saugerties and Culpeper all running throughout the spring and summer. So it’s a very exciting time. It hits. And that all leads us back to Ocala again and the Winter of next year in 24. So I think there’s a lot of exciting opportunities, great things happening, a whole new era. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again we have a can do attitude. We’re looking to win over anyone we’ve lost and welcome new exhibitors to the hits family. 
• Piper Klemm [01:02:43] Now, Joe, you’ve worked in pretty much every area of our industry over the years, but most people know about you from the insurance side of things. Tell us a little bit about Alliant, private client. 
• Joe Norick [01:02:54] You know, I’m so lucky Alliant, private client headquartered in Newport Beach, but we have offices all over the country. We’re one of the premier high net worth and ultra high net worth insurance groups that also has a specific emphasis on equine, whether it be farm and ranch or equine mortality. We can look at all aspects of your insurance needs. So they were so kind to me and letting me work with two companies. So I work with Alliant private client, and I work for hits. I’m probably one of the luckiest guys in the horse show world not to have one job, but two for two amazing firms. 
• Piper Klemm [01:03:28] All right. Well, thank you for joining us, Joe, and we will see you this summer at a variety of hits shows. And you can get your Plaid Horse magazine at all of them. 
• Joe Norick [01:03:40] Absolutely. I read it often when I’m at the show. 
• Piper Klemm [01:03:43] Thanks, Joe. 
• Joe Norick [01:03:44] Thanks, Piper. Always the best. 
• Piper Klemm [01:06:18] To learn more about anything we’ve discussed on today’s show, visit theplaidhorse.com. You can find show notes at theplaidhorse.com/listen. Follow the plaid horse on all the social medias. You can subscribe to the print edition of the Plaid Horse magazine at the Plaid Horse.com/subscribe. Please write and review the plaiddcast anywhere you listen to it. And if you enjoy this episode, please share it with your friends. I will see you at the ring!